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Legends. Stories, scattered through time. Mankind has grown quite fond of recounting the many exploits of heroes and villains, forgetting so easily that we are remnants - byproducts - of a forgotten past.

Join the ranks of Remnant’s prestigious Academies as you fight to protect the Four Kingdoms from the clutches of the evil Creatures of Grimm. Alternatively, you may work towards bringing the world to its knees by fighting against the last sparks of humanity. Red Like Roses is based on the hit web-series RWBY by Monty Oum and Rooster Teeth Productions.

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 « Let's Talk About That: Death Enabled Events », Opinions + Poll
 
What do you think of DE Events?
In Favor [ 10 ]  [52.63%]
Opposed [ 5 ]  [26.32%]
Indifferent [ 4 ]  [21.05%]
Total Votes: 19
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Kenji
 Posted on Apr 3 2016, 12:37 AM
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Note: Effective 4/3, please do not vote if you do not plan on reading this thread and/or responding with a reply as well. The purpose of these "Let's Talk About That" threads is to keep members of the site in the loop pertaining to matters that are going to directly affect them in some capacity, to talk and have any questions they might have answered.

For the sake of everything being clear and out in the open, there will be nothing added in "Spoiler" tags - so yes, this thread may look dauntingly large.




Following the posting of RLR's April Update, @Ryees officially introduced the concept of «DEATH ENABLED» threads that will begin to take place on the site. Why do I say concept? Simply put, any discerning reader will be quick to note the following line in the announcement:
QUOTE
I will also be running some side events whose exact natures have not been yet figured out. Some number of those threads will be «DEATH ENABLED» and as such will have some nice rewards tacked on to them. Keep an eye out for those, as well.

The assumption that these threads are going to take up the entirety of site plot and have their exact nature set in stone is unfounded and, quite frankly, untrue. Red Like Roses is an ever growing experience, one that we are taking great strides to ensure is fun for everyone. Some people find the idea of DE threads fun, so why not give it a shot?

Fundamentally, the issue it seems has stemmed with the introduction of such threads is what exactly "Death Enabled" means.

The best way to explain that is to first start with what it is not.
DE is not:
  • By entering into this thread, your character will die.
  • By entering into this thread, you want your character to die.

  • Or By entering into this thread, you put your character on the executioner’s block.

DE is:
  • Your character, if subjected to lethal force during the events of these threads, will die.

The above point is really how most (major) combat threads should be handled in many cases in respect to being moderated, and it is how 99% of combat-inclusive sites deal with such a thing. Plot Armor is only such a viable excuse, and putting your character in a situation where their life is in danger should bring with it the life-or-death connotations of that situation.

Keep in mind, also, that each DE thread is accompanied by the following warning (important details bolded):
A note on death-enabled threads:

Within this thread, your character's life is no longer safe. Moderators will be monitoring these threads very closely, making sure everything that happens within them is possible and plausible. If your character ends up in a situation that would result in their death while in this thread, there will be no convenient deus ex machina, no strange happening or convenient interruption, to save them. The staff will deliberate on such events, and, in the case they feel that your character has objectively put themselves into a situation to do so, your character will die.

Participation in this thread may have an impact on further site events, up to and including your ability to participate in those threads. The more you participate in threads hosted by the site, the more you will be able to participate in the future. The risks are real, but the rewards are great.

There is a risk versus reward factor to consider when entering into this thread, and, should you consider it worth the risk, you will reap the rewards.



Let's start with each bolded point in the order it appears:
  • First, moderators will be monitoring these threads to ensure god-modding and other problem actions do not take place in these threads.
  • If you put yourself in a situation where you may be killed, then you may be killed. There is no implication that this is an absolute, unless the only absolute result is death.
  • There will be no "Jesus Yamato" ways of saving yourself, which I'm sure 99% of RPers will agree within the realms of combat.
  • These threads may impact future site plots - not necessarily will.
  • The more you participate, the better. Many site plot threads die because they are not given the sense of urgency and importance they deserve. By prioritizing these events, you will reap the benefits (of which are to be determined).

An excerpt from @Ryees:
QUOTE
It is a common misconception that “enabled” somehow equates to “guaranteed,” and this is simply not the case. In a DE thread, the events are controlled by the Narrator, unlike player threads where all the events therein are decided upon by the players involved. This means that if the Narrator is so inclined, he can use the characters contained within the thread to attempt to kill your character. Now, a very important note on this:

!MODERATOR GOD POWERS DO NOT EXTEND INTO ANY IN-CHARACTER SCENE!


By NO means does squaring up with a moderator-controlled Player Character (PC) or Non-Player Character (NPC) mean you cannot win that fight simply because it is controlled by site staff. Moderators and admins exist to keep the out of character sections of the site running, and to moderate the in-character sections of the site to make sure everyone is staying kosher, and not writing their characters into powers or abilities that they do not have. Aside from telling a player that they cannot do something they wrote because their application does not state it is possible or correcting problems or mishaps that naturally occur, they have no ability beyond exactly what every other player character does: Whatever is written in their application.

If a Narrator intends to kill your character, they have to do some number of the following:
  1. Outplay you: If they write a scene and you can surpass it, you come out on top.
  2. Corner you: If your character has a methodology of escape, use it, and escape.
  3. They must deliver a lethal blow, legitimately, through your character’s defenses: “Save-or-dies,” as they are so affectionately named, will never occur. Your character has defenses and plans and abilities; you will not be killed without getting a chance to exercise those abilities to save yourself.
  4. Force you to make a decision: How keen are you to let your friends die? If you are forced to choose between fleeing and saving a friend, you may be risking suffering from one of the above-listed scenarios.

He adds further:
QUOTE
An interesting thing happens, when your life is on the line. You care. Suddenly, strongly, deeply, you care about the events of that thread, because should you falter, you may be putting your character’s life on the line. And when someone cares about something that deeply, it is very easy for them to put their best out, to make the absolute most out of every letter placed on that page. And that makes characters come to life in a way they never could otherwise.

DE threads take the control of the scene away from the players, and they add a sense of mystery and tension. What will happen next? What is going to come out of that car? What is going to happen when I open this door? These are all questions that, were the thread player-written, you would already know the answer to, and therefore, there is no intrigue or mystery or unknowns. That, in turn, means that there is no risk. A sense of urgency and danger, aside from exciting and guaranteed to get the adrenaline pumping, is the largest goal of enabling death within a thread.

So what do you think of this concept? Are you willing to give it a shot? Drop a response as to why with your answer to the poll, and feel free to ask any questions that you might have. Being open about your opinions on such matters is the only way we can continue to promote the community-driven environment that's made RLR what it is so far.

♡Ken


Ken's two-cents: I was initially on the fence with these threads, however. the response to and activity seen in both Grimm Activity Reports & Circle the Trucks have given me a reason to be otherwise. I'm seeing a great deal of work, creativity, etc. going into these posts - and being so early into these threads it's giving me a lot of hope and hype for things further down the road.

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Glensi Doughtry
 Posted on Apr 3 2016, 01:57 AM
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Long Post Incoming!

As someone who has only just joined this forum a little bit ago, I know my opinion may not mean much to a lot of people, but I for one enjoy DE events.

Fights are probably my favorite part of RP, and while staged fights (where two members get together and plan out 'hey if I do this what will you do?') is all fun and good, it lacks a sense of accomplishment to me. (don't get me wrong, I adore all written fights, lots of action, lots of getting to know others writing styles and personalities)

In DE fights, there is no staging, there is no 'pre-planned' winner. It is all for one and one for all. I have always been willing to sacrifice my characters for the plot, no matter how dear they are to me. Not to mention, as posed above, DE does not mean 'turn in your character sheet.'

As a tabletop gamer as well as an online rper I understand that you may not win every fight. You have to know your escape routes. You have to know who is fighting by your side. If I am in a DE thread I will refuse to leave a member behind who has not explicitly stated 'leave me behind', and I will be the first to volunteer my character to hold off/take a bullet for/bodyblock another character. I take battles very seriously and if I am hit i will rp that injury, be it a scrape, a lost limb or even a death, because I understand what I have signed up for, and that is half the fun. If I lose a character, will I be salty? Sure, but I won't fault the Mods for that loss, that loss is on me and I have to do better next time. It also opens up my time to designing a new and improved baby.

You don't have to take a death lying down. As long as a character has a chance to escape or a possibility of another member stepping in, there is very little danger of you ACTUALLY losing your character. Because that is what is fair. You put a lot of effort and emotion into your characters, which is good. It attaches you, makes you invested in the site and the community as a whole and you should be proud of your work.

If you put that work in to keep your characters safe, build plot-lines where they will never be in 'danger', then good. That's what you signed up for and you are NOT required to join. DE is plot, but it is not all the plot there can be on this site. DA's can be fun, but only if you go in with an open mind.

As someone who has been a mod before (all be it, several years ago) and on the enemy side of a DE I can tell you it is not their prerogative to kill your characters outright. Their goal is to challenge you. To put your writing and characters to the test. Heck if you don't want to lose a character you have already established, may I suggest creating a character with DE's in mind. that way you don't lose your favorite babies.




As a solution to those who wish to fight and don't want a DE, may I suggest a competition in the future? A safe environment for everyone to test their skills and enjoy a little action without the possibility of loss of life? Maybe something fun for the civi's and villians too? Who knows. I have confidence in our mods and I am sure they will find something good for all of us. But remember, not everything is going to be everyone's cup of tea. If DA isn't yours, that's fine! We are all here to have fun, not tear each other's throats out. Save that for the DA threads ; )



TLDR

I am in favor of DE's. But if you aren't, then don't join. There is plenty of beautiful happy plot that won't get your character killed all over this site. You just have to build it.

This post has been edited by Glensi Doughtry: Apr 3 2016, 02:07 AM
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Ash Trevelyan
 Posted on Apr 3 2016, 02:37 AM
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Ok I know I'm pretty new and have literally have done no RPing whatsoever but I have been given the chance to give my opinion on something and I damn well am. OK I like the idea of Death enabled events, sure it is a little daunting to put your character out there but you have got to have some confidence in them. You are making a character in the world of Remnant, a f**king deadly place. So naturally they are either going to be badass warriors or...... well Jaune but either way survival is key. Look it is going to be challenging but there will always be ways out of situations. Do Kenji and Ryees seem like some cruel overlords who want to punish and torture us..... ok bad question XD. In all seriousness though when you pour so much effort into a character you wont want to lose it for nothing (Even I know that) so when you write for them you are going to work your damn hardest to keep them alive, this will probably mean to problem solving and hard decisions, hell maybe you're character will develop new personality traits in the middle of the thread. All of these things will lead to some great stories and yes your character may fall but they may also achieve great things, all you need to do is take the first step (I couldn't help myself there http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif ) and worst comes to worst....you'll learn from your mistakes, grow as a writer and rise from the ashes to make new and better characters. And even if that hasn't persuaded you, you volunteer for these things, its your choice whether or not to throw your character in the ring. Yes, these may well (and if i read the info correctly will most likely) be the main points of plot development for the overall story but that doesn't stop you from having fun with other threads. No one is taking tools away from you, just adding new ones to use..... And finally everything I've said has been mainly from the creators point of view (for obvious reasons) but before you dismiss everything i say just hear me out. You may not want to risk your characters but there are those who are and watching them make stories in these situations are AMAZING ok so at this point here isn't much in either of the two DE threads but stuff is happening and its already showing signs of great tense action IMO. I mean if people didn't like watching/reading situations where death wasn't the case why is Game of thrones so popular *stares at Daenerys* ok maybe there's more than one reason.......

I am an openminded person and so are the rest of RLR so guys, please add your thought here. I may be just a big idiot who has no idea what im talking about so if you have differing opinions or just want have your say REPLY like right now...... go on......
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Fionn Velchans
 Posted on Apr 3 2016, 02:43 PM
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I'm sorry, this turned into an essay. It's, like, eight-hundred-thousand words. I am sorry.

Hello! I have some problems with this.

In truth, the idea of opt-in death enabled events isn't, on its own, a big deal. People can set whatever rules they like for threads they set up, and going 'by the way death is enabled in this one' is just one of those, and not really the concern of anybody not involved. That's not my issue.

Here are my problems with this, presented one by one.

1) This is a surefire way to create a culture of haves and have-nots, wherein people who are willing to participate in death enabled threads are given favourable treatment, more involvement (either by way of being allowed to participate in, or just by way of having more involvement in the threads that set them up) in site-wide plots, and so on.

That's something you even reference in your post, saying "Participation in this thread may have an impact on further site events, up to and including your ability to participate in those threads." I recognise that you say that this isn't set in the stone, and I'm glad of this, but 'it's uncertain' isn't a salve against criticism, unfortunately.

(Also, the concept of getting 'rewards' for certain threads is already kind of creating two classes of player. If taking part in a thread with death is as enjoyable as that excerpt says it is, then is it actually necessary to incentivise them?)

Already, you're kind of putting the idea of 'this site should be fun for everyone' in jeopardy, especially since - nobody seems to know exactly how much influence this will have on the site plot, how much it will bar people who don't want to participate from taking part in the wider plot.

Suggestion: My strong, strong suggestion would be to have the death enabled plots have no bearing on the site-wide plot whatsoever. People can still have DE threads, they can still have entire DE plots, but so long as there's a mod-backed rewards system and the possibility that not taking part is going to make participating in other plots, and especially the site-wide plot more difficult, saying 'oh, you don't have to opt in' is meaningless, because there's now a system set up where people can effectively be punished for not taking part.


2) This is going to cause strife - no matter how you do it, actually, whether it's just something some players are doing on the side, or whether it's a mod-backed plot thing, but you're going to get considerably more strife when it's all of those things I talked about above.

What's the plan for what happens if, say, a character belonging to a mun with whom the Narrator has a grudge towards, and they find a way to kill off that character while still technically following the rules? What's the plan if objectivity of the mods is compromised at all, or even just called into question? What's the plan for what happens when players don't feel like they can approach mods with their feelings that a thread was unfair, because maybe the Narrator is a mod, or maybe they're just put-off by how passionate the mods clearly are about this concept?

You're dealing with something very important to a lot of people here - that is to say characters that they've put time and effort into - so if you kill them off, then by jove, you need to have one hell of a system of checks and balances in place, and ways of both ensuring and assuring others that the objectivity of Narrators and mods of iron-clad, and I don't see that here, because an assurance that 'the mods will be scrutinising these threads' is definitely not going to fly with someone who feels like their character was taken from them unfairly.

For that matter, what happens when a character dies fairly, but the mun insists it's unfair? How will you deal with the conflicts that arise from that? What about when a character doesn't die, and someone else insists that they should have?

I can almost guarantee that those will happen, sooner or later.

Suggestion: There's actually no easy way to get around a lot of this.

Reading the cbox suggests that there's an Aura Bar mechanic that characters can check - although checking might, er, very well get a character killed while they're glancing at their phone. My suggestion would be to have a running tally of those bars available in another thread, so players can go "Welp, my character's getting low on health, time to have them scram," and they can then coordinate with the Narrator and other players a way to get them out of the thread.

That way, dying becomes - not quite a choice, but somewhat closer to one.

That's not going to eliminate the problem altogether, but it will give players an easy out (and players should always have an easy out if they change their minds, you cannot rely on everyone signing up being okay with it for the entire duration, for a whole host of reasons starting with 'they might feel it's not fair' to 'they might just not be enjoying themselves and it's a game for everyone') if they want one, and that's a fairly decent safeguard against both Narrator grudges (because even if you know for a fact that will never be a problem, other people do need safeguards) and just players seeing unfairness when there might not be any.


3) The way this was introduced unnerves me, to say the least. As far as I can see, players weren't warned or consulted about this, it was just introduced, and the business of actually asking players about it only came up later.

That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that the mods won't make this system one that disadvantages certain players as far as plot goes, nor does it fill me with confidence that how the system works will be transparent and set up to make it as fun as possible for people involved, since it seems like if 'players having fun' was really the #1 Priority here, somebody would have actually asked us about it before the first DE threads went up.

And ultimately, a forum RPG isn't a D&D game and the mods aren't dungeon masters. That's not the game that was presented to us when we joined, and it would have been nice to have some warning if there were plans to start incorporating a D&D-esque thing into it.

Most disheartening of all is that I feel like everything I wrote here (and the fact that when I last checked more than half of the people replying to the poll were either against it or indifferent) will get brushed off or, worse, responded to with anger and the potential for being punished. Because the way this has been approached so far hasn't exactly filled me with confidence.

Suggestion: There's not much I can really suggest here. The damage is kind of done.


And I just want to add again that I'm really not against the whole idea of DE threads as an opt-in side thing that some people can do if they like. They're not my cup of tea, but that's no reason not to do them.

What concerns me is that we've been presented with a lot of uncertainties, and among those uncertainties are the very real possibility - acknowledged almost as a certainty in the first post, by the looks of things - that people who don't want to take part in them will end up in a disadvantaged position because they don't want to take part in them.

And short of a pretty drastic reworking of the system, I'm not seeing much of a way around that.
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Aurick Lavern
 Posted on Apr 3 2016, 03:29 PM
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Just my quick two cents as someone who's ultimately "Indifferent".

While I agree with the idea that having actual stakes that are out of your control can improve one's devotion and writing, I also feel like character death is quite an extreme as well. You can have other stakes that don't involve such commitment.

That's not to say that I don't have any interest in participating in these kind of threads. But the problem for me is that I wouldn't want to participate in a Death Enabled thread when my character and his (upcoming) teammates have already planned things for the future. And all of that plotting we've done would become undone if one of our characters were to be 'accidentally' killed, and it's simply not worth the risk.

All in all, I agree with Fionn in just about all regards, especially with how non-participants are being a little bit punished given the lockout of DE enabled site-wide plots.

To echo what he said at the end, I think DE should simply be a feature that players can choose to opt-in to, but I don't think those players should be privy to special rewards or benefits that non-opters aren't able to get either. To begin with, I feel like people who opt in for DE often do it for the enjoyment of risk alone.

But what do I know? I always play Fire Emblem on Casual. >u>

This post has been edited by Aurick Lavern: Apr 3 2016, 03:30 PM
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Kenji
 Posted on Apr 3 2016, 04:10 PM
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A good response, and one that raises clear and present concerns that should be addressed. Don't worry about negative backlash, as well. The purpose of these threads is to give a neutral ground where we, as a site, can discuss mechanics and whatnot, gauge interest, and if there is enough of said interest go from there.

So here's my answer to your above points:

Spoiler [Show]


In Summary
Your concerns are well founded, but I do believe that the presence of this thread eliminates most of them. Those that aren’t immediately reconciled by this thread existing will be brought befpre the staff - and then the community - for further consideration! \owo/

In the future, I urge you not to feel like you’re going to be attacked for voicing your opinion. If that happens, do not hesitate to let me know. And as I told Ellie, in the future we will be much more vigilant in keeping every member of RLR on the same page before systems are implemented.

~K
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Hastur
 Posted on Apr 3 2016, 04:12 PM
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Hey all, I think I'd like to add a bit of positivity to this. I see a lot of negativity or just indifference towards Death Enabled threads. I honestly like it. With risk comes reward and this is an aspect I like that actually makes things fun and interesting. There are plenty of other sites that I've been on have had similar types of threads,

Overall, it's all about choice. If one does not like these threads then they should simply stay out of them. You aren't going to be judged or even punished for not participating but for the people that want to, they can. I actually really like the fact that my characters have to actively risk themselves in certain threads. Like the tabletops that I play, I know that my characters life is NOT guaranteed, heck, less so with dice-based games.

TL;DR: I'd like to think if you want to be in these threads you are taking that risk and you have to be aware of the consequences but if you don't want to be in it then don't post in one. This isn't Tumblr, you don't have to get offended at nonsense from something that doesn't have to effect you.
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Toggle
 Posted on Apr 4 2016, 12:23 PM
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Ok, I am going to try put together my thoughts on these threads. If you want it in a summary and really don’t want to read it all then I agree with the idea that they propose, but I think that the way they were implemented had caused issues and confusion.

First of all, I am not new to having characters die or know my characters can die. As on all the sites I have been on that is a standard that really in any thread your character is liable to die. So I am more than willing to have characters die and most times in the creation of a character I think of at least one way how their death would play out. So I feel having threads that have to be called death-enabled is such a terrible name as it does make it look to some people like their only reason is to kill at least one person off.

However, I like the idea behind the name. It works like any other good plot thread with whoever is leading the thread, in the current case the mods, act for the NPCs and enemies in like a turn based system. It is good as it can provide good and unique challenges for characters and good for keeping people on track to the plot of the thread and not just go off in wild tangents. (I feel that everyone has done that at least once in their RP life) So I don’t say the idea is all bad, just it could have been better described.

Since it is acting like what would be called mission (weather being plot or not) that people sign-up to you can see that people get excited by the idea of new things to throw characters at. Nevertheless, you can scare people with the words “death-enabled” and I feel this is more so when you have not even an indication of what you are really signing up for.

I think what would be better is instead of being called “death-enabled”, which I feel is bad if you are meaning that any other thread exempts you from having the ability to die no matter what you do, it would be best to have them be like missions and have a difficulty rating attached to them. If they were to have a separate sign-up thread or like the current two be just an initial post, I feel that giving a simple bit of info of what they are going to be in for when signing up would be more informative.

Also, no putting it in a spoiler pane as that serves no purpose! (Small rant)

I know that depending on the plot you don’t want to give all the game away at the start but I feel that giving the mission a rating like easy, medium or hard to give an indication as to how experienced your character would need to be as to not find it tough. For example, easy might be good for first and second year student and they might encounter some challenges that would test them on the mission. However, a hard mission would be extremely difficult for a first/second year team to beat on their own and though while it is still possible if they are not careful then the risk of casualties is high.

I feel like that system would be far clearer than just having a title such as death-enabled that is so generic and can cause people to view it differently. But, will let the core system of people being able make plots for people to play though and test their characters to stay.

I would also add on another note, if a character is at risk of having made a move that could kill their character or maybe even a serious injury I feel that they should get a warning at least on the first time it happens in a thread to see if they want to change their last post, or if it was going to be death then having it be changes to just be a serious injury. This will also be along a reminder that if they continue with such actions that there is a risk of death further down the line and maybe ways that they might want to consider if they want to avoid that happening.
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Kenji
 Posted on Apr 5 2016, 10:18 AM
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Based on recent site activity and number of votes, it is safe to assume this poll is complete. We will keep the floor open for people to vote/voice their opinions.

Final Count
In-Favor: 10
Opposed: 5
Indifferent: 4

Based on the above, Death Enabled Events pass. Staff will consider all feedback received and write up a proper explaination of the system (including a better name for such events) and post it following completion.

A big thank you to those that voted, and an even bigger thank you to those that posted.

Be sure to check out the other Let's Talk About That thread pertaining to a Time System!

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